Amber Healy, Author at It's All Journalism

437. Objectivity, racism, and the crisis of credibility

Objectivity is a core journalism value, but some have questioned whether it’s a privilege reserved only for white journalists.

When Pacinthe Mattar, then a reporter for CBC Radio in Toronto, went to Baltimore in 2015 to cover the uprising following the death of Freddie Gray while in police custody, her first stop was Gray’s neighborhood in the northern part of the city. She happened to arrive the same day charges were announced against six officers involved in his death.

After spending hours talking to people and as she was packing up to go back to her hotel, a young man approached Mattar. He asked who she worked for and they struck up a conversation. As their interview began, another man joined them.

*The Walrus* recently published Pacinthe Mattar’s story “Objectivity is a Privilege Afforded to White Journalists.”

Mattar began the common practice of spelling the man’s name to him to make sure she had it right and he corrected her — Jarrod Jones, not Jared.

After returning to Toronto and telling her executive producer about the striking similarities in what the two men told her about their own experiences — men who didn’t know each other at all and had never met prior to running into Mattar — and how Baltimore police ended up chasing Mattar and Jones out of an intersection after the city’s curfew started because they were still outside, something odd happened.

“My executive producer didn’t want to run it,” Mattar says. “She asked me, almost defensively, did you corroborate this with police? I had contacted the Baltimore Police Department multiple times and I reached out to their union. Neither responded. I told her I did. The next question, which solidified the position (of mistrust), was ‘How do you know these men gave you their real names?’”

Mattar recently wrote an article about this experience and others in which reporters of color and those from racialized backgrounds are held to different standards and have to work harder to “prove” their stories are accurate. This is true also when these reporters are covering racialized stories, she says in the piece, “Objectivity is a Privilege Afforded to White Journalists,” recently published in The Walrus.

She believes there is a crisis in credibility: “There is a degree of mistrust toward racialized people’s accounts of racism when you go to cover them,” Mattar says. “There’s the mistrust of people we’re trying to cover, predominantly Black, indigenous, and other racialized people who have experiences of racism. And then there’s the mistrust of Black, Indigenous, and other racialized journalists when they’re trying to cover stories about racism.”

It was only after another colleague, an older white man, spoke with the executive producer about the situation and offered support for Mattar’s journalistic professionalism and the validity of her research, that the executive producer relented and the interview aired.

It’s All Journalism host Michael O’Connell talks with Pacinthe Mattar, a broadcast producer in Toronto, who recently wrote a piece for The Walrus titled “Objectivity is a Privilege Afforded to White Journalists.” They discuss her belief that there is a two-fold crisis in credibility when it comes to journalists of color covering racialized topics.

405. Former public radio journalist pushes back on ‘objectivity’

436. Investigative journalism that’s heavy on context

In the two years that Madison Carter has been an investigative journalist for WKBW, the ABC affiliate in Buffalo, New York, she’s never quite seen a moment like this past summer.

On May 30, she was part of her newsroom’s team covering a protest at City Hall, during the height of the Black Lives Matter rallies following the death of George Floyd. It was during one of these protests a few days later that Buffalo found a moment of notoriety after Buffalo Police Department officers were taped pushing an older man, later identified as Martin Gugino. He was seen lying on his back with what appeared to be blood coming from his ear.

Madison Carter is an investigative journalist with WKBW in Buffalo.

“That was a major event that people were mesmerized by,” Carter says. “People in our community were frustrated because they were like, wait a minute, violence against an older white gentleman is getting this crazy reaction but not when it happens to a person of color? It put Buffalo in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons. I think it made things a lot more tense.”

In her investigative reporting during the protests, and as a general personal rule, Cater says she likes to focus on not just what’s happening, but the context around it.

She also credits her approach to covering protests, and providing that context, from time spent in Charlottesville, Virginia following the Unite the Right rally in 2018.

“Charlottesville was my training grounds,” she says. “People who have been around protests typically have been very local, everyone knows who’s leading it, everyone knows what the issues are. Charlottesville was the genesis of outside agitators. Now people think, ‘We can go to someone else’s city and mess things up.’ I don’t want to give people the attention they don’t deserve. Let’s talk about what’s happening.”

When people are being interviewed to discuss what’s happening, however, they often like to deflect and try to point blame in other directions. Take, for example, Carter’s investigative reporting into the actions of the chief of police for the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority, charged with providing security on Buffalo’s mass transit system and at the Buffalo Niagara International Airport.

There were stories going around the community that the chief of that force, George Gast, had been seen on security cameras “doing things that didn’t represent police, either an extreme use of force or an abuse of his position,” Carter says. She later learned that rumors of his actions being caught on tape had been circulating for a number of years and that members of local news organizations had been trying to obtain those tapes without luck.

Someone within the organization leaked the footage to Carter. One video showed him “take a plastic bag and swinging it toward this guy who’s drunk and handcuffed already,” she says. Another shows Gast “walking into a room and there’s a handcuffed guy talking to an officer. (Gast) tells the rookie to take the handcuffs off the guy … and told him to put his hands on (Gast). People said this was inappropriate and not OK.”

The NFTA tried to convince Carter not to pursue the story, eventually allowing her to come to the agency’s offices and review the tape herself. She wanted to use the footage to allow viewers to decide whether the conduct of this particular officer was acceptable, especially after learning complaints had been filed and an internal investigation of Gast’s actions ended without any action taken against him.

“I wanted to lay out all the details,” she says. “My reporting is showing people — to me, it’s shocking, but showing how much is legal, how much is allowed in a government agency or police agency. I just wanted to present it to the viewer to let them decide.”

It’s All Journalism host Michael O’Connell talks with Madison Carter, an investigative journalist for the ABC affiliate in Buffalo, WKBW. They discuss her coverage of Black Lives Matter protests in the city this summer and how she tries to incorporate context in all her reporting.

433. Movement journalism: A way to report on injustice

435. Sports columnist Jerry Izenberg subject of new book

Sportswriter Ed Odeven might be living on the other side of the world, but for his new book, he reached out to a hometown hero.

Odeven is a sports columnist for Japan Forward, a national website based in Japan. “Fifty percent of the audience is in Japan and there is a growing audience overseas,” he says. “Some of the stories I’ve written have helped increase the overseas audience in North America, but there’s a large audience in the Philippines and India and Taiwan.”

Ed Odeven is a sportswriter with Japan Forward and author of the new book, *Going 15 Rounds With Jerry Izenberg: A Collection Of Interviews With The Legendary Columnist*

Odeven has been in Japan for more than a decade now, first writing for the Japan Times as a basketball beat reporter just as that country launched its Basketball Japan League in 2005 and 2006, coinciding with the World Basketball Championship tournament.

“Japan has five national sports newspapers in Japanese,” he says. “They’ve been around for decades. There’s a very robust sports media in Japan, along with national newspapers. There’s a lot of information out there. People get the paper in the morning and another in the evening, especially the older generation. People are taking the train and there’s more time to read.”

Odeven, however, is a New York/New Jersey guy at heart. He lived in that area until he moved to Arizona just before his sophomore year of high school. He remembered reading the columns of Jerry Izenberg from the Newark Star-Ledger from childhood and also in the pieces his uncle would mail him from time to time.

“With the advent of the internet, I read him whenever there was a big fight or a Super Bowl or Triple Crown race,” Odeven says. “He’s a great storyteller, really good and interesting and a different approach from the guys screaming on talk radio. He had a nuanced argument in his columns.”

Izenberg is one of two columnists to attend nearly every Super Bowl, breaking his streak only this year, and instead, he watched the game from a casino near his home in Henderson, Nevada.

When Odeven started a website a few years ago, he reached out to people for interviews and conversations. His new book, Going 15 Rounds With Jerry Izenberg: A Collection Of Interviews With The Legendary Columnist, is the result of five years’ worth of conversations and research with Izenberg and other notable figures in the sports writing world.

“Jerry agreed to interview with me in late 2014. Six months passed and we spoke for almost three hours. The basis of that conversation is the bulk of part one of the book. We also did follow-up short interviews and emails over the next few years that really fleshed out some topics and enhanced some of the questions I had,” Odeven says.

Izenberg has a fantastic memory of sports, going back to the end of Babe Ruth’s career, and credits his father, an immigrant from the Russian/Poland border, for his love of baseball.

In turn, Odeven has a deep respect for Izenberg, who still writes and works despite just passing his 90th birthday.

“I admire the sustained excellence of his career and desire to keep working,” Odeven says. “He just wrote his first novel.”

It’s All Journalism host Michael O’Connell talks to Ed Odeven, a sportswriter for Japan Forward, about being an international sports journalist and his new book, Going 15 Rounds with Jerry Izenberg: A Collection of Interviews with the Legendary Columnist.

431. Statistics and sports: Telling stories with numbers

434. Put community at the center of your journalism

Community-centered journalism needs to be like communities themselves: based on the priorities and interests of the people who live there, no two exactly the same.

It “centers both the needs of the community and its assets and has the goal of improving the communication health of the community,” says Andrea Wenzel, an assistant professor at Klein College of Media and Communication and Temple University. She’s also the author of a new book on the subject of community-centered journalism from the University of Illinois Press.

Andrea Wenzel is the author of Community-Centered Journalism, a new book from the University of Illinois Press

The book isn’t necessarily a how-to guide or an outline that should be read as the end-all, be-all meant to save journalism, but it can help both communities and newsrooms prioritize the needs of the people who live there.

“I hope the two can be related, through this process of community-centered journalism,” she says. “It can repair a lot of the problems of journalism and the way we’ve traditionally been practicing it.”

As the concept’s name suggests, community-centered journalism needs to start with the people in the municipality or region covered by a publication or other outlet.

“You start out by trying to find out what information needs the community has and also what assets they have,” Wenzel says. “There may already be things that are helpful and valuable in a community. There might be lots of strong community organizations or really vibrant social media pages. There might be things that already exist and you can collaborate. The first step is to get a sense of what the needs and assets are.”

Newsrooms traditionally see themselves as the point of origin for something like this, but that doesn’t have to be the case, she adds. “Some projects might start with community members and work with newsrooms, but have the core in the community. The basic idea is, if you think about communication health for the community, it’ll end up benefiting everybody. It’s a different motivation from what newsrooms have done.”

Each community might have a different set of priorities: People in one location might want more high school and college sports coverage; another might want more information on local government and politics. But it isn’t until that information is sought and collected that a newsroom or organization can know for sure.

Community-centered journalism is “not going to generate a one-size-fits-all solution, but it’s a process that can be applied in different places,” Wenzel says.

It’s All Journalism host Michael O’Connell talks a friend of the podcast, Andrea Wenzel, assistant professor at Klein College of Media and Communication and Temple University, about her new book on community-centered journalism. They discuss the importance of learning a community’s priorities and information needs as a way to improve coverage and create better and more tailored solutions.

419. Now is the time to focus on audience engagement

433. Movement journalism: A way to report on injustice

Tina Vasquez’s journey toward movement journalism grew from her background and family, who she sees as direct influences on how she does her work.

Vasquez, a senior reporter with Prism, has been covering immigration issues, specifically the treatment of undocumented immigrants and the abuse and mistreatment they suffer, for most of her career. But it’s only recently that she’s learned the language to accurately identify the type of work she does: movement journalism, a topic for which she recently wrote a piece for Nieman Reports.

Tina Vasquez is a senior reporter at Prism.

Put simply, movement journalism is “journalism in service of liberation and it seeks to meet the needs of the community directly affected by injustice,” she says. “As an extension, as I do journalism, I don’t see myself reporting on communities but alongside them. I end up working very closely with people who are sources but trying to respond to their information needs, whether that has anything to do with reporting; just using the skills I have and the power I have to get them the information they need for their communities.”

She doesn’t see herself as an advocate, necessarily.

“I don’t purport to be a mouthpiece for movements,” Vasquez says. “I try hard to shift narratives. I do center advocates in my reporting a lot. They come from directly affected communities. I write really uncomfortable stories and don’t adhere to a tidy narrative. Sometimes that doesn’t gel with organizations.”

For example, Vasquez recently uncovered the name of the doctor who is believed to have carried out forced operations on women in ICE facilities in Georgia. She spoke directly with women who had been subjected to these procedures, some of whom spoke out against the whistleblower and saying the woman who brought the story to light was complicit in the actions.

Vasquez knows personal the hardships facing undocumented immigrants — her father came to the U.S. from Mexico without “authorization,” she says — and Vasquez feels that makes her better prepared and knowledgeable about the nuances of challenges facing that community of people.

It also makes her keenly aware of who’s missing from most stories about immigration.

“When I look at mainstream reporting about immigration or immigration reporting from legacy outlets, there are no undocumented people quoted, pretty regularly,” she says. “If you are reading reporting about this horrible new policy that brutalizes immigrants in the U.S., there will be Trump quotes and Stephen Miller quotes and ICE and DHS, but nowhere will you find people most impacted by this policy.”

She’s also had people make assumptions about her own citizenship. “Based on my reporting and my name, people have threatened to call ICE on me and threatened to report me. They think I must be undocumented. It’s so strange.”

If her fellow reporters take issue with her work, or want to question her ability to cover these issues objectively?

“I’ve never had a lot of concern about how other journalists view my work,” Vasquez says. “I know what things are important to me and how building trust is important to me and how keeping people safe is important to me. If that doesn’t gel with mainstream journalism, I’m totally fine with that.”

It’s All Journalism host Michael O’Connell talks with Tina Vasquez, a reporter with Prism and author of a new piece in Nieman Reports titled “Is Movement Journalism What Is Needed During This Reckoning Over Race and Inequality?” They discuss movement journalism and how people who practice it aren’t necessarily advocates but are better equipped to present stories from marginalized and underserved communities.

423. Covering Black communities with nuance and purpose

432. Overdose crisis, harm reduction, and the Rust Belt

What’s driving Jack Shuler these days, and what’s at the heart of his new book, is a quest for empathy and rethinking America’s War on Drugs during the current overdose crisis.

As an associate professor of English at Denison University, Shuler teaches students about narrative journalism, the ability to tell longer, character-driven stories to a broad audience using some of the same skills fiction writers use to build their worlds.

Shuler’s book, This Is Ohio: The Overdose Crisis and the Front Lines of a New America, examines the way in which Americans from Rust Belt cities are struggling to get clean and the people who are trying to incorporate harm reduction practices into a social justice issue that many people overlook.

Jack Shuler is the author of *This Is Ohio: The Overdose Crisis and the Front Lines of a New America*,

Shuler began hanging out at a diner in Newark where activists and organizers would meet with people. The diner itself was started by a man who wanted to help provide job experiences for people who might not otherwise be able to get hired — people with felony convictions or substance abuse issues. From those conversations, he became interested in the issue of homelessness and, more importantly, how people became homeless.

“At the time I was working on a pitch about how people experience election night living in motels,” he says. “I wasn’t hearing about either candidate running for office about the growing inequality in income gaps and homelessness and the Rust Belt. As I talked to folks, this idea of deaths of despair, of overdose, that’s what most people were talking about. All these pressures leading to homelessness, leading to camps, were combining in a really awful way in overdoses.”

As he continued to research and talk with people in Lincoln County, Ohio, and other rural areas, he “was very conscious of the fact that the national narrative around the overdose crisis was that Ohio and West Virginia were on their knees and their morgues were filling up. All of that is true, but the part I wasn’t seeing, I was seeing all these people fighting back and trying to save lives.”

The harm reduction movement includes concepts like needle exchanges in order to help people who are addicted to injected drugs have access to clean needles, which helps cut down on certain transmissible diseases.

“It’s a public health approach to addressing the harms that can come from using drugs, especially IV drug use,” Shuler says. “It’s also a social justice movement. There are lots of harms that come from drug use and some of those harms are larger harms, like racism. Racism and the drug war that affects people who use drugs. We can’t help people who use drugs if we don’t address larger systemic issues.”

Harm reduction as a social movement is one that can be difficult for some people to grasp because of the limited understanding and conversations about drug abuse and overdose in general.

“We’re not thinking enough about social determinants of health,” he says. “We’re treating this as a health crisis instead of a criminal justice crisis, but we’re still treating it as a criminal justice crisis. People don’t know enough about harm reduction. People still think addiction is a moral failing. People use drugs because drugs make them feel better. The next question should be, why do people feel bad? Those are big, huge questions and they require a lot of money to address. I don’t know if we have the will. If people aren’t even willing to wear masks, or don’t have the will collectively to address this, we’ll still be here when the pandemic subsides.”

It’s All Journalism host Michael O’Connell talks to Jack Shuler, an associate professor at Denison University and author of a new book, This Is Ohio: The Overdose Crisis and the Front Lines of a New America. They discuss the drug overdose crisis in Ohio and how harm reduction practices can help save lives and communities.

427. Crime reporting: Covering violence and trauma

431. Statistics and sports: Telling stories with numbers

Possibly more than other sports played in public for adoring fans, baseball is a game of strategy and thought. It’s one where storylines exist and can change at any time, leading to memorable games that are discussed for generations.

Mark Simon has built his career telling stories about the game, adding data journalism with narrative skills to expand the drama beyond the diamond.

Mark Simon is the host of two podcasts, The Sports Info Solutions Baseball Podcast and The Journalism Salute.

In 2016, Simon was working for a baseball publication and asked if he could do a player profile on pitcher Ryan Merritt.

“He was like the 15th or 16th or 17th guy on the staff. Due to a series of injuries deep in the playoffs, he was thrown in to pitch what was the Indians’ biggest game of the year, to try and win the pennant against the Blue Jays,” Simon recalls. The idea for the story was to dig into Merritt’s background and see if there were any parallels in his younger days that lined up with his moment in the spotlight.

“I reached out to people from his hometown and eventually got the best man at his wedding and his high school baseball coach. When Ryan was a kid, they used to throw rocks at trees. He could hit any spot he wanted on the tree,” Simon says. “In the game that day, Ryan Merritt pitched pretty well. He was able to put his pitches in exactly the right spot.”

The company where Simon works today, Sports Info Solutions, has a tool that allows researchers to pull data like that, showing the accuracy of a pitcher based on how many times his pitch meets the catcher’s glove.

“He rated in the 80th or 90th percentile for that,” something called pitch framing, Simon said. “That’s a piece of information, a piece of data, I wouldn’t have been able to get as Joe Ordinary Human Interest Reporter. I was able to combine the human interest aspect of the story with the numerical part of the story and combine it into something that, in the end, the baseball editor was pretty pleased with how it turned out.”

Simon spent 16 years at ESPN, including a stint co-hosting the Baseball Today. He’s also the author of The Yankees Index, Every Number Tells A Story.

Now Simon is the host of the Sports InfoSolutions Baseball Podcast, a clearly and simply named show that delivers what it promises by featuring baseball writers, broadcasters and players talking about the game they love.

“We try to have intelligent baseball conversations,” he says. “The other area we delve into with players is how do you do what you do on the defensive side. How are you able to make this catch that nobody else can make, how are you able to field this ball that nobody else can field? How are you able to do that pitch framing thing I talked about? Players are open and willing to talk shop like that because it plays to their strengths.”

This week, It’s All Journalism host Michael O’Connell is joined by Mark Simon, a statistics reporter for Sports Info Solutions and host of the platform’s baseball podcast. In addition, Simon just launched a media-focused podcast: The Journalism Salute.

417. Can’t find women who know sports? Try harder

430. Don’t expect any answers on Election Night

The best advice for young reporters this election night is to be patient.

While some national networks might want to start making calls and announcing winners in state, local, and, of course, the presidential election early on the night of Nov. 3, it’s probably much smarter to resist that urge, says Ryan Whalen, a Buffalo-based reporter with Spectrum News and the network’s Capital Tonight nightly political show.

“The worst thing you can do as a journalist is say something definitively that ends up not being true,” Whalen says. “Election Night, you tend to want to make those calls. Even if someone is saying they won an election, you might want to hedge that. Know the scenario. This election is going to be so much different than anyone’s dealt with before. If you plan on saying something definitive on election night, you’re probably wrong.”

It’s anticipated that more people will be voting by mail, given the concerns about COVID-19 and the long lines likely at polling locations. Votes cast by mail won’t be counted in time to be verified and factored in for the general election, meaning it is very unlikely we’ll know with any certainty who will win the presidential race on Election Day.

“I think this will be the strangest election night of my lifetime,” Whalen says. “Generally, we’re sitting there, hoping that the ballots will come in quick enough that we’re not there until 1 a.m. We’re going in knowing that’s not going to be the case this year.”

This week, It’s All Journalism host Michael O’Connell is joined by Spectrum News reporter Ryan Whalen to discuss the wild lead-up to this year’s election and why smart reporters should resist calling races on Election Night.

#369 How journalists can avoid rising to the bait in covering Trump

429. Need video footage? Hire a Stringr

If all news is local, how can broadcast newsrooms meet the need for video footage when their resources are limited?

Lindsay Stewart worked as a producer for ABC News in the LA newsroom and noticed that, more and more often, she’d be asked to create a segment on a story and would be hard-pressed to find enough footage, or of the right quality, to cover the item.

Lindsay Stewart is the co-founder of Stringr

This was in the earlier days of social media, which made more clips available, but it also meant more newsrooms accessing the same viral footage and racing — and bidding — for rights to use it.

“I thought there had to be a better way. I wished there was a system in which I could request a video I wanted or I could request more video and that there was a clearinghouse that made it less block-and-tackle in terms of finding the videographer, clearing the clip, and coming up with a price that was fair for all,” she says. “Some people are willing to give away their tornado clip and some thought it was worth $100,000, neither of which were particularly fair.”

Stewart decided to co-found her own solution.

Stringr now has more than 120,000 videographers around the U.S. with varying degrees of availability and expertise, plus the ability to provide and distribute breaking news footage and video that has a longer shelf life for newsrooms, advertising agencies, and is in the process of producing full features.

“We have gradations of providers from what we call Stringr Crowd, which is run-and-gun breaking news, all the way up to full professionals that shoot very high-end videos not just for news but other kinds of customers,” Stewart says. “What we’ve also established now is a robust technological platform, which is from end-to-end, every part of the life cycle of creating a video, not just at the sourcing side of it but all the way through editing, transcription, publishing. We do now live and taped and we even put the technology in the hands of some customers.”

This not only allows broadcast newsrooms to find spot news footage they need for their main stories of the day, but it also to increases the corps of videographers by submitting a request for work to the platform, finding a videographer who can provide it, and working out the price of the video directly from the Stringr app.

It also helps meet the needs of even the largest news companies, when breaking news happens but there isn’t enough time to send a crew to the location. While the Los Angeles bureaus are well-staffed, for example, the media coverage area extends to San Diego, more than 90 minutes away.

The videographers who work on Stringr “allow them to capture video where they can’t or don’t have enough time to send their own people,” Stewart says.

It’s All Journalism producer Michael O’Connell talks to Lindsay Stewart, a former broadcast news producer-turned-entrepreneur, about Stringr, which allows newsrooms to access a network of 120,000 videographers to help cover the news of the day and beyond.

399. FedNet gathers latest multimedia news from Capitol Hill

428. Fake news, presidential deception and the Civil War

A president decides, in a moment of widespread political unrest, that the best course of action in the nation’s greatest interest is having journalists arrested for sharing a story that contained purposely false information.

A cutting-edge form of instant communication that people dreamed would unite a nation on the brink of disaster proved to be a wedge between the citizenry, driving friends further apart.

Author and writer Elizabeth Mitchel (Ceridwen Morris)

Powerful political leaders writing articles for newspapers and other outlets, under anonymous of false bylines, to garner votes and sway support for their actions of choice.

In researching her latest book, Elizabeth Mitchell found all this and more modern-day chaos — from 1864.

The book, Lincoln’s Lie: A True Civil War Caper Through Fake News, Wall Street and the White House, details a series of incidents that could just as easily — or believably — be happening right now.

Mitchell’s career has included stints at Spin and George, but she admits she tried to get out of journalism classes in college because she wasn’t interested in being a reporter.

“I explained I would never need to get that education because that wasn’t what I was planning on being,” she says. “I was very interested in writing, I loved books.”

Still, Mitchell oversaw political and investigative pieces at Spin for a number of years, including hiring William Vollmann to cover the drug trade in Burma and the Bosnian war, and Elizabeth Gilbert, who landed on Mitchell’s radar after Bob Guccione Jr., the magazine’s founder, mentioned Gilbert wrote pretty interesting short stories. “She went all over the place and handed in perfect copy,” Mitchell recalls.

After working at Spin, Mitchell was headhunted to join the team at George and worked for several years alongside John F. Kennedy Jr.

But it’s the interview process that keeps her writing and reporting and researching.

“Fiction writers say the characters took over and surprised me — I could never get myself to the point of being surprised” when trying to write fiction, Mitchell says. “In non-fiction, people are constantly surprising you. There have been times I’ve interviewed people for many days, hours and hours of long conversation, and just as you’re about to hang up, they’ll say, ‘Oh, well, there’s this one other thing.’ It’s always that (thing) that turns the story in this incredible way. I can’t get enough of that experience. I find it so exciting that you can go in and you have a license to talk to anyone you’d like and you can ask anything you’re curious about and you can tell that story to anyone.”

It’s All Journalism host Michael O’Connell is joined by author and editor Elizabeth Mitchell to talk about the interview process and how 1864 is more like 2020 than most people realize. Mitchell also discusses her new book, Lincoln’s Lie: A True Civil War Caper Through Fake News, Wall Street and the White House

413. Long history of bad police responses to protests

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